Jan said... Hi Cathie and everyone out there, Not sure if this is where I should be posting this but this is where I am so here I go. vs.39-40 "And all these, having gained approval through their faith,did not received what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect." All the people written about in chap.11 gained approval through their faith did not receive what was promised--is the writer referring to complete removal of sins and eternal life with God as part of the holy city to come or???? God did provide something better for us through Jesus' sacrificail death, complete once for all time, forgiveness of sin and a High Priest who constantly sits in heaven interceeding for us {covered by His blood) "so that APART FROM US they should not be made perfect" Made perfect. teleiomai to be made perfect or complete in the sense of reaching one's prescribed goal. In my Bible this is cross-referenced to Rev. 6:11 "...rest for a little while longer until the number of their fellow servamts and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed." God's plan included Jesus coming and dying Is that why those in the Old Testament had to wait (apart from us) or is the waiting about the number of martyrs before the second coming? Since the writer is writing to Jews, the "us" would not be referring to the Jews and Gentiles forming His church on this earth, could it? Hope my question is understandable. Anyway, I need some help and clarification with these 2 verses. Love you and need you all, Jan
Hi Jan, I'm glad that you dropped by! I moved your question over to this posting because it has to do with the audio session that is available here.
I'm not going to go into this at great length, hopefully leaving room for others to enter into this discussion. If you would still like more than I give here, just ask!
Let's look at the last part of your question first...
Absolutely the 'us' referred to in 11:40 refers to those Hebrew Christians that this epistle was written to... just as assuredly as the 'us' refers to us who are Gentile believers today! Gentile believers have been 'grafted in' (Ephesians 2) to the promise. This 'promise' has actually been highlighted for us in 11:13 as being 'promises'... the short version of this would be the coming of Jesus as the Messiah and all that that His coming would involve and encompass... including His second coming as well.
We know from our study of Christ and the priesthood that no perfecting work could be achieved apart from the 'better than' sacrifice of Jesus. The ultimate perfecting work of Christ, in those who are His own, will be completed when He comes a second time for those that belong to Him... Thessalonians 4:13-18 shows us the deeper meaning of Hebrews 11:39-40 in that "the dead in Christ will rise first" that includes those who have believed from a distance (before the cross). Whether we are dead in Christ or alive at His second coming, it will be a time of 'being made perfect' TOGETHER and not apart!
I hope that this adds to your understanding Jan and that perhaps it can open up some discussion... if nothing else than just plain praising Him!
Is it saying they didn't receive the promise in their earthly life time, because a promise is a promise with God and they did receive the promise after their death(a eternal home with Him the result of Jesus sacrifice - later on in history) Not wording this well but is this to be an encouragement to us to look always look and hope and have perspective beyond this world - to include in our thinking the big picture of our life here and later there (after death)and remember that we too won't realise everything we are promised in Him on this earth. (just some of my raw thoughts that I am working thru)
Hi Sally! I've just completed my rough outline of the teaching portion for the class this Thursday and I'm encouraged to see that as we look deeper at the "definition, necessity, manifestation and principles of faith" as required in this week's synopsis portion of our homework that our understanding of these things will deepen even more.
You are right in that 'they did not receive the promise in their earthly life time' and yes, there is a 'big picture' aspect that needs to be taken into consideration here.
Just to add to the discussion - I had alluded in my response to Jan the designated placement of 'what was promised' in v.39 (literal translation being 'the promise') and 'promises' of v.13... add to that v.33 which states, that they 'obtained promises' and now you should have all kinds of questions firing off. How could they have obtained 'promises' if we are told that they died in faith without receiving what was 'promised'?
It's because there is a difference between 'the promises' and the 'promise'... and we will look closer at this on Thursday....
Jan said...
ReplyDeleteHi Cathie and everyone out there,
Not sure if this is where I should be posting this but this is where I am so here I go.
vs.39-40 "And all these, having gained approval through their faith,did not received what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect." All the people written about in chap.11 gained approval through their faith did not receive what was promised--is the writer referring to complete removal of sins and eternal life with God as part of the holy city to come or???? God did provide something better for us through Jesus' sacrificail death, complete once for all time, forgiveness of sin and a High Priest who constantly sits in heaven interceeding for us {covered by His blood) "so that APART FROM US they should not be made perfect" Made perfect. teleiomai to be made perfect or complete in the sense of reaching one's prescribed goal. In my Bible this is cross-referenced to Rev. 6:11 "...rest for a little while longer until the number of their fellow servamts and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed." God's plan included Jesus coming and dying Is that why those in the Old Testament had to wait (apart from us) or is the waiting about the number of martyrs before the second coming? Since the writer is writing to Jews, the "us" would not be referring to the Jews and Gentiles forming His church on this earth, could it? Hope my question is understandable. Anyway, I need some help and clarification with these 2 verses.
Love you and need you all,
Jan
Friday, April 08, 2011 6:47:00 PM
Hi Jan, I'm glad that you dropped by! I moved your question over to this posting because it has to do with the audio session that is available here.
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to go into this at great length, hopefully leaving room for others to enter into this discussion. If you would still like more than I give here, just ask!
Let's look at the last part of your question first...
Absolutely the 'us' referred to in 11:40 refers to those Hebrew Christians that this epistle was written to... just as assuredly as the 'us' refers to us who are Gentile believers today! Gentile believers have been 'grafted in' (Ephesians 2) to the promise. This 'promise' has actually been highlighted for us in 11:13 as being 'promises'... the short version of this would be the coming of Jesus as the Messiah and all that that His coming would involve and encompass... including His second coming as well.
We know from our study of Christ and the priesthood that no perfecting work could be achieved apart from the 'better than' sacrifice of Jesus. The ultimate perfecting work of Christ, in those who are His own, will be completed when He comes a second time for those that belong to Him... Thessalonians 4:13-18 shows us the deeper meaning of Hebrews 11:39-40 in that "the dead in Christ will rise first" that includes those who have believed from a distance (before the cross). Whether we are dead in Christ or alive at His second coming, it will be a time of 'being made perfect' TOGETHER and not apart!
I hope that this adds to your understanding Jan and that perhaps it can open up some discussion... if nothing else than just plain praising Him!
love you!
Is it saying they didn't receive the promise in their earthly life time, because a promise is a promise with God and they did receive the promise after their death(a eternal home with Him the result of Jesus sacrifice - later on in history) Not wording this well but is this to be an encouragement to us to look always look and hope and have perspective beyond this world - to include in our thinking the big picture of our life here and later there (after death)and remember that we too won't realise everything we are promised in Him on this earth.
ReplyDelete(just some of my raw thoughts that I am working thru)
You promise - you are funny!
ReplyDeleteHi Sally!
ReplyDeleteI've just completed my rough outline of the teaching portion for the class this Thursday and I'm encouraged to see that as we look deeper at the "definition, necessity, manifestation and principles of faith" as required in this week's synopsis portion of our homework that our understanding of these things will deepen even more.
You are right in that 'they did not receive the promise in their earthly life time' and yes, there is a 'big picture' aspect that needs to be taken into consideration here.
Just to add to the discussion - I had alluded in my response to Jan the designated placement of 'what was promised' in v.39 (literal translation being 'the promise') and 'promises' of v.13... add to that v.33 which states, that they 'obtained promises' and now you should have all kinds of questions firing off. How could they have obtained 'promises' if we are told that they died in faith without receiving what was 'promised'?
It's because there is a difference between 'the promises' and the 'promise'... and we will look closer at this on Thursday....
I promise!
Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:41:00 PM